A few months back I spoke with the lyrically astute Tragic and now it's time to catch up with the multi-talented Rockwell.

antiMusic: Well first of all, congrats on the record. As you can probably tell, it's one my favorites from last year. You guys just did an outstanding job on it and I can't say enough about it.

Rockwell: Thank you very much.

antiMusic: I asked Tragic this same question but wanted to get your take on it. To my ears, the band has matured significantly between Peace and Carrots and the new record. The first record had "My Home" and "Alarm Clock". This record has "Clich�" and "So Simple". Do you agree and to what do you owe this leap forward?

Rockwell: Yeah, I think between every album, there's been quite a bit of growth. Not just in our performance but we've always done everything DIY. And I think I've grown tremendously as an engineer. Obviously I've gone to school for a year down south and that's when we did Peace and Carrots. The first record was just so raw and we used terrible mics and I didn't know what I was doing. I was redlining and everything. It was just terrible. When I listen to it now, it's just pain to my ears. So I've grown that way.

So for Basics to Back It to Peace and Carrots�.which we weren't even together for. We did that when I was down south. I would send Tynan some beats. And he would record with Greg Campbell, who was our manager at the time. And they would send me the a capella tracks and I would mix it all down in Atlanta.

So How to Drink Yourself Famous was the first time in over a year that we had been together to record the album. We recorded half of it in Atlanta and obviously by then, I was more versed in engineering. I think also we were just really excited about not being in our hometown and recording. I was more excited about knowing what I was doing and I think we had just both grown exponentially over the last two years. I mean, the first record was before we had ever gone on tour or even played any shows ever so we've had time to see other acts and see what they do and get inspiration from every which way. I think that's helped a lot with this album. And so I agree completely that we've gone for sure.

antiMusic: Sonically or even conceptually did you have an overall idea of how you wanted this record to sound or areas that you wanted to expand on from your previous record?

Rockwell: I'm not sure. I guess I did have higher expectations. The school in Atlanta, maybe just because it was more hip-hop oriented or whatever, there was a lot of people that I was meeting down there who were doing really great stuff. I guess I felt like I had to step it up. It was neat to go to another city and see how other people are doing it and I think that helped me raise the bar quite a bit, sonically anyway. And I know Tynan is always growing as a writer.

antiMusic: You've got some special guests on the record. Most notably you managed to get both Pac and Biggie to be on the same record without shots being fired. How did you go about deciding on the samples that you wanted on the record?

Rockwell: I'm just always sample digging, in every crate in a record store. I'm always looking for some weird stuff that I can put in there. All the scratching stuff comes from DJ So Nice. Anything that is vocal stuff is from him. Anything that comes from the music is by me. I'm just always listening to music and something will pop out and I'll try to fit in somewhere.

antiMusic: Every single cut on the record is of a very high quality. But for me, I think the first like, six cuts are really stacked.

Rockwell: I would agree with you. Our last two records were five-song EPs. I think we were really scared of losing people's attentions so it was very front-stacked for sure. But one of my favorites is still the last song which is kind of a hip-hopera, a story song about us robbing this guy and then running away down south and getting killed at the end.

antiMusic: Yeah, I was going to ask you about that later. That sounded like it must have been fun to put together.

Rockwell: Yeah big time. I made the beat and it just didn't sound like a song that we could rap anything to. The piano and everything just sounded like it should be narrated over, not rapping. I really like that song a lot.

antiMusic: Did it go through a lot of different changes or once you had the script, did it pretty much all fall together?

Rockwell: Yeah, we had the script and I don't think the skits were in there at first. We just had breaks and Tynan just pretty much explained everything. And the skits, as corny as they are, I think kind of tie it all together. But yeah, we had lots of fun doing that. We had some friends in as special guests on vocals just to be different characters. My fianc� is one of the prostitutes who comes to the door. So yeah, that was a lot of fun and we actually are talking to a guy right now to do a short movie of that. So we'll have the verses just like a normal rap video but acting out the scenes and the skits we won't just take from the record. We'll actually act them out. I mean, we'll try to act them out (laughs). We'll try it. It could be good. It could be corny. We don't know.

antiMusic: "I'm Tired" is definitely my favorite song on the record. How did that come together from your end?

Rockwell: Yeah, that's a song that we made really quickly and the beat that I used, I actually had kicking around for a long time. As with most of our songs, I'll make this really extravagant beat and I'll think it's really amazing and will want to use it in a song and then Tynan won't be tickled by it. He'll just say, "OK, I guess we'll work with that." And he'll choose this little donut --- if I make a beat which is a loop of a beat of one bass line or whatever, we'll call it a donut --- and like it a lot, and I'll just be like, "Well, this doesn't show off me." (laughs) It's just a really simple beat, you know? And he'll just always key in on these kinds of things (laughs).

There's this pop-punk band Something Corporate, from California from the early 2000's and the lead singer plays piano too so he does this one riff and I chopped that off and used that for the sample. It's one that Tynan always liked and we did it really quick. We did it with this crappy mic so it made it sound all gritty and�I don't know�simplicity wins a lot of the time, I guess (laughs).

antiMusic: There are a couple of moments on the record that are different than your average hip-hop group. "T-Shirt" with a cool guitar solo and "Little Brother".

Rockwell: Thank you. Well we had some help on "T-shirt� from the beautiful and talented Kaylie Seaver. (laughs) We've had her on every record. She's always fun to work with. She's very talented and she always brings a nice element to the song. Those songs are obviously more from my end. I came from playing in bands. Punk bands and hardcore bands. I miss playing guitar on stage. I miss singing. For the first two records, we didn't include any of that. But it was something that I missed and wanted to work into our stuff and I have the ability to do that. So why not try it? Because it's not hip-hop or whatever? My background isn't even hip-hop. I'm not by any means a hip-hop head. I make music. I mean, I can hear a funk song from the '70s and it's a hip-hop beat, you know what I mean? I'm not crazy about keeping it strictly hip-hop. I make music and whatever comes out, comes out. And those songs are a reflection of that, I guess.

The solo in the "T-shirt" song was inspired by a Blue Rodeo song, actually (laughs). So I'm getting inspiration everywhere (laughs). But how that song started was, we were just messing around with that song in Tynan's living room in Ottawa. And I was just playing guitar, waiting for him to get ready for something. And he literally said, "What's it like outside. Do I have to wear a sweater or something?" And I was just playing and singing and sang the line, "It's too cold for a t-shirt." And we both started laughing. That's how it started. Then he wrote this big analogy just from that about the world being this cold place and all this. Then we just called Kaylie and said, "We just wrote this song right now. We want you to come and sing on it." So it just all happened one afternoon in my living room. I added the bass and the drums and all that stuff later. So we recorded that song to no beat whatsoever. So it was really nice the way it all came together.

antiMusic: You're so crazy-ass talented. Whenever "T-Shirt" is on, I start singing along to the chorus and I always follow Kaylie's part. I can't follow your harmony parts. I realize I'm not a musician but that's just one more testament to your abilities, did you try singing the same part as her first or was the harmony there from the get-go?

Rockwell: Yeah the harmony parts are weird. I laid down the main track and Kaylie is so talented that I just sang the line in falsetto and she just nailed it, stuff that I could never do. So the lines just came in my head and I was using her as a puppet to do it. And she would kill it, amazingly perfect. It's so fun recording with her.

antiMusic: How did "Little Brother" come about?

Rockwell: I forget where the blues influence came from but in Atlanta I wrote one blues song and I tried to make it a hip-hop song and it was just impossible to rap to. So I did another blues song and blues is pretty straight forward the way it is. Well, I'm sure it's more complicated than that but the way I play it, it's pretty simple. So I just gave it a little more hop. In a way, it's like I played drums with the guitar so it was way easier to rap to for Tynan. And we recorded the song with no chorus at all. Then I just did the chorus on my own time. And I was almost joking with it. I was doing ridiculous things that I would never really do. And I sent it to Tynan and he was like, "Oh man, I don't really know. This could be too over the top." He thought I was kidding. And so I ended up showing it to a couple of people, just friends, to see what they thought and they were like "Whoah! That's amazing." So we just put it on the record as a little treat and it turned out to be a real favorite for some people.

antiMusic: Why does the guy hit you in the face for the video of "I'm Tired"?

Rockwell: (laughs) Oh I just ran into the guy. The video makes no sense. We're just running. We just wanted to do something different. I mean, the song is about we were frustrated or whatever so we just made it look like we were rushing the whole time and nothing was going well. We were missing our bus, etc. Yeah, we really didn't have a story at all but lots of people talk about it like "Oh, it was such a good video" and they make their own stories up which is cool. But we had no story at all. We knew we wanted it to be black and white before we filmed it. That was all. But T-Loz, the guy who shot it, is only 17 years-old. He's a kid from Quebec who mainly makes skateboarding movies and things like that. And he was a fan and wanted to do a video for us. We actually brought him with us to Juno Fest. We did that show with Swollen Members and he was able to talk to their manager and the next time they came through town, he did a video for Mad Child. And it hit the Internet and it's actually doing really well right now.

So it's really neat to make all these great connections and help some of the kids out who are so talented. It puts them in the spotlight a little bit and helps us out as well obviously. We also did a video with another young guy from Quebec, Alexandre Desjardins, which was "Oh So Good." He did that and he's only 18 as well. These young kids, they have all this access to these tools at such a cheaper price. Man, if they had this technology around when I was playing in bands, I'd probably be in a million music videos.

antiMusic: You come from a rock background, at least via your previous band. How does a rock dude end up in a rap duo?

Rockwell: It's funny. I've always made hip-hop on the side. In high school, we always had this thing where we'd skip class and go to my house and record these rap songs�.ridiculous rap songs. It was just a joke at the time, you know? Rapping about dollar bills and all this crap. Tynan would be rapping and I'd make the beats. I remember the very first beat I made was with this toy keyboard and this drum loop that I had downloaded. And I put it altogether with Reason which is a software to make beats with. And I used that for a long time and now I'm using Logic but that's literally how it started.

Yeah, I was just in a lot of punk bands and made hip-hop on the side. And Tynan was the only one that was actually good at it. We would all be joking and he would start rapping and we'd go, "Oh man, he's actually good." We all knew he was the best of all of us.

But I remember the first time he ever rapped on a microphone. It was in my bedroom and he's like, "OK, you gotta leave the room now." And we were like (laughs) "What? We all just rapped in front of you. You're going to make us leave now?" And he goes "Yeah." So we go outside the room and start to play the beat and he's going to record. But we hear nothing! So I go back inside and ask "Are you going to go?" And he's like "Yeah, I'm going to need you to go downstairs as well. You can't be around me at all." (laughs) He did it though and I remember every word of that verse and it was awesome. Now everything has changed and he loves rapping in front of people but I'll never forget that. It was the first time. Really funny stuff.

antiMusic: What is the first thing you remember about Tynan from when you met him?

Rockwell: When I first met him�Wow! (thinks) We met in high school, I believe. We were 14 or something like that. I don't even really remember becoming friends with him, to be honest. It just happened. It was just my circle started hanging out with his circle and it just became one big gang. Our high school was really cool because all of our friends are still really close. I find lots of people aren't like that. We're all very close and I think most people lose touch with their high school friends and become close with their work friends or college/university friends. But we've all separated ways but all came back together. But I don't remember actually meeting him. I just remember being friends and causing trouble (laughs).

antiMusic: How do your songs develop? Are you strictly the music guy and Tynan is strictly the lyrics guy or do the lines blur between two at times?

Rockwell: I think for the most part, he's the lyrics guy and I'm the music guy. As far as lines crossing, it's more of an approval type thing, I would say. He's not going to sit at the keyboard and make a different part for the song. He'll approve a part of say, "I don't like that because�" And it's the same with lyrics. He might say something like "Does this sound weird?" and I'll offer up my opinion more than anything. Very rarely will I write any words. I guess, the few things that I've sung, I've written. But yeah, the points touch. They don't really cross.

antiMusic: You've posted several videos on YouTube with you composing various instrumental tracks. Do riffs just come to you out of the blue or do you have to sit down and play until something interesting appears?

Rockwell: Yeah, the last part. For those videos, I've basically already have sat down and written the chops that I'm going to do with the sample. So I guess it's just acting for the video but I do remember there's been a few times where the film was rolling and I stumbled across something that was interesting that I hung onto. And I think you can tell those parts because you see me screwing up or whatever and then finally finding the part.

I usually press record and do the bass line and I'll stop it and write whatever which might be the drums or something. Then I'll press record it once I know what I'm going to do. I started doing that when I was down south because Tynan was still doing shows by himself. Because it was easier to do shows without me because I was just a hype-man. But now depending on the show, I'm playing guitar and singing and all the shows I'm running with an MPC so I'm playing some of the beats live.

So that's sort of shaped our live show now. It's not just a rapper on stage with his buddy behind him singing every second word or whatever, you know? It's more dynamic. We're doing stuff what other groups might not do. I know some people run the MPCs live but a lot don't so that's always nice to step it up in that sense.

antiMusic: You took some time out of the band last year to attend recording school in Atlanta. What was it about this school that drew you there and what did it give you beyond the actual learning?

Rockwell: I accepted it as an option because my father lives down there so I was able to go down there and have free room and board. And honestly, I thought that the schools down there were better. Beyond the learning, it was just the experience of being down there and being out of my element and meeting new people that were doing the same thing. But I know that walking out of there, I felt like a totally different musician. I think I got a lot out of it that other people didn't. A lot of the other people were really young and wanted to know how to make music as opposed to learning how to engineer music. We started with a 20 person class but only 6 graduated.

antiMusic: What was the first significant sign for you that Philly Moves was going to do something beyond what most garage bands achieve?

Rockwell: I really think it was that first tour that we did. We just dove in. We made the album and got it printed. I came from a touring punk rock background where that's just what you did. Even if you didn't have an album. You'd write five songs and you'd get in the van and go on tour. And I already had that mentality. So I was just saying to Tynan, "Why don't we just go and play shows? Why not?" There's million of Internet rappers out there and they think they're going to make it big because they have this awesome song that they've recorded. But you need to get out of your mom's basement and go play shows as well." And I don't think a lot of people in the rap community were doing that.

So we did it and we were really well-received almost everywhere we went and I think we have the charisma or this sound that people were attracted to. I mean none of the shows were crazy big or anything like that but the people that we did get in front of were really receptive to us. And I think that was the first time I really realized that something was happening. And it was well into the tour --- the west coast --- that I realized that. I think we found our place on stage as the shows went on. Three weeks to a month into the tour is when we really found our groove and were really comfortable on stage and having a lot of fun with it. Maybe I write songs a little differently coming from this background than other artists who just grew up on hip-hop and have made hip-hop. So I don't know exactly what it is but I know we have something unique.

antiMusic: You sort of touched on it before but how did the live shows evolve and how comfortable were you in the beginning. As you say, you come from a rock background, so I would imagine you were more comfortable playing shows that I would imagine Tynan was.

Rockwell: I remember after we made the album, I actually went on tour with another band that I joined, Benefit of a Doubt, and they were doing a cross-Canada tour right before we did our tour. So I did two cross-Canada tours in nine months or something like that with two different bands.

And the first show we ever played, I was like, "I'm not going to do this with you, just cuz I want you to get your legs on stage." And to be honest it was more of a "I don't know what the hell I'm going to do with myself up there." (laughs) I don't have a guitar in my hands. I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know how to bounce around the stage and be hip-hop. And it was all new to me. I tried to make it look like "Ah, I've done this before. It's your turn to do it." But I was just really scared to be up there myself.

antiMusic: You wanted to get a giant alarm clock or something (laughs)

Rockwell: (laughs) Yeah, exactly. So I made it through and eventually it came together. The first show was at a local show in our hometown of Manotick. And it was basically just a bunch of our friends getting drunk on a Saturday night in our hometown. But our first official show out of our area and as Philly Moves was in Kingston at a place called The Mansion. At that time, I was trying to fit in and I bought turntables and I was going to be the beat-maker/DJ guy. So I had turntables for the first half of the tour of the cross-Canada tour that we did. Eventually I just said, "What am I doing up here? I don't know how to DJ. This is an art that will take years to learn. But I learned how to mix a little bit and do our set. But to do anything before the bands went on, I didn't know what to do. I knew our set and that was it. So halfway through the tour, I just scrapped the turntables and I was just the hype-man. Eventually I was just getting sick of that.

I was used to being the front-man of a band, you know. Maybe I was feeling insignificant or something so that's when we started working in playing beats on stage with the pad, MPC and playing guitar and that started changing the songs. So now I love going on stage and depending on the show, we will play the acoustic songs. A show like Bluesfest for example, we'll do those songs because that's a wide variety of people in the crowd. So doing that stuff might warm them up to the fact that they're listening to or watching hip-hop if they might otherwise not be interested in listening to that. But also, if we're doing a heavy-duty hip-hop show, we won't be busting out the guitars and stuff either. Just cuz that's not the crowd for that. So it's evolved that way. We have a lot of fun on stage.

antiMusic: Tynan had said before that you guys were working on a new mix tape. When do you expect to be unleashing that?

Rockwell: We do a monthly here in Toronto on the third Friday of every month. So we're tentatively releasing it in February for that show. We've been working on it and we're half done and it's going really well. We've never had lots of features, other than Kaylie, on our cds but on this one we've got lots of friends, other rappers. We've got Mista D from The Salads and we did a reggae song with him and he's singing the chorus. That's a really, really fun one. We have Clarity from Montreal on it. We've got Pacewon from New Jersey. That's the only verse that we paid for. He's kind of a big deal to us. That's the only CD that we ever listen to on tour. So it was really exciting to get him on the CD.

antiMusic: Where do you see the band going and what achievements are possible for you in your opinion?

Rockwell: I would really, really love to get a Juno nod. We've applied every year and we're getting close. We're getting tight with the Juno staff now cuz every year we're submitting our albums and this is the first time we've handed it in ourselves in person. And we met the girl that we've been talking to on the phone for three years. That would be tremendous. I would be happy if we got nominated for a Juno. It might sound like it's out of reach but it's really not. Some people think that it's kind of a stretch but we've charted right across the country. We're making an impact. And I think, considering the other artists that have been nominated, we're not that far behind them. That would be a great achievement for us and maybe some people would take us a little more seriously.

And I really want to get on a really big supporting tour. Like opening for Classified for a tour, you know what I mean? Like a tour where we're going to get in front of 500 kids every night. Instead of doing the tour that we do right now that we have to do all the work for and play for maybe 20 kids. And 15 of them already know us. We need to get in front of big crowds who don't know who we are and I think that will really help us. Cuz I think we have the sound. We just need to get in front of people.

antiMusic: In retrospect, what do you think your trip to Los Angeles accomplished? Was it just a personal achievement highlight or something like that?

Rockwell: Yeah pretty much. We met a lot of amazing people who are on the same level as us. So it didn't really further our career or anything like that. We just made some new friends in new cities. It looks good on paper. And we were able to film a music video there so right away people go, "Whoah. These kids from Ottawa or Toronto went all the way out to LA and filmed a video there." But really, it was just all cuts from our trip. I filmed everything. But yeah, we played in Hollywood. You had a little hand in it, which we appreciate greatly. We played at the Roxy in Hollywood and a lot of people can't say that. And that's something that you would actually put on a one-sheet or bio. So it was personal satisfaction and it looks good on paper and video.

antiMusic: And sort of on that topic, do you think your move to Toronto was the next big step up the ladder for you, in terms of providing exposure?

Rockwell: Yeah, that's the biggest thing. Exposure. We're in a city where we can do more things on a daily basis. Like, there's hip-hop shows three or four times a week in Toronto. And they're all in front of different crowds in different parts of the city. As opposed to Ottawa where maybe there'll be a local show every month. When we started, there were no local shows at all. If you wanted to see a hip-hop show, you had to wait to have somebody roll through town. And then a couple of locals would open for them. But there were no purely local shows. And I think we threw the first local show in a long time at The Cabin which was our tour take-off show in 2009. We packed the place with about 200 kids and they were really excited. I think a lot of those Internet rappers, like I said before, saw this and said, "Well, those kids are doing it, Why can't we?" So after that, a lot more people started playing shows. They saw how easy it was and saw all these kids that were supporting it. But yeah, moving to Toronto was the next step for us and it's worked out really well so far.

antiMusic: It really seems like you guys are workaholics. You've got full-time jobs and you especially with your crazy hours, it really limits the extra time you can spend on Philly Moves. I guess it's a testament to the partnership you have. But how long can you keep going at the rate you're going right now?

Rockwell: I guess until one of us goes crazy or dead broke or something. (laughs). I think, though, that it's easier in the sense that, again, coming from the rock background, we don't have to practice twice or three times a week to stay tight like a band does. Because there's not a drummer or bass player or keys or whatever that all have to play in sync. It's me and my compadre here and either I'm playing the beats on the pad or they're just being played over a sound system and we're doing our thing. I mean, practice is always crucial but it's a lot easier to keep this kind of thing together. I've been in bands that just fell apart cuz you're working with five different schedules.

But even so, it IS getting harder. Just putting together this mix tape, we're really struggling to find the time to get together to do that. I mean, we manage to book off work for shows and things like that but we need to find the time to get together to just work on our craft as well. Cuz even though we live in the same city --- we live just five minutes away from each other --- it still feels too separated creatively. But this mix tape is coming together really well, so I don't know (laughs). Both sides of the coin, I guess.

antiMusic: You're still enjoying the success of this record and are about to put out the mix tape but have you started to look ahead to the next record at all in terms of ideas or concepts, if not actual songs?

Rockwell: Yeah, we're looking ahead to the next record already. This mix tape is basically just beats that we had lying around and songs that didn't make it onto other records. So it's a mix of old b-sides from the last couple of years and new stuff that we're making. We just want to get it out there. We'll be giving it away for free digitally and making some copies and selling them for $5 or something at shows.

But the next record, we want it to be songs like "Little Brother" --- we're going to try to make it with no samples. Which is kind of a big thing hanging over our heads. Cuz any time we're going to music conferences and talking to people, A&R reps are like "Samples? Don't even talk to me anymore." They don't want to touch it with a ten-foot pole. They can't get publishing rights. So we're going to try to make an album --- even if it's just five songs --- of sample-less songs. Which is going to be very different for us. And I don't know how it's going to go (laughs). Cuz we've developed this sound now that is heavily dependant on samples. And the songs like "Little Brother" and "�T-shirt", those are a little weird for some people.

So I don't know if we're going to lose fans --- gain some other ones. I don't know what's going to happen. But we'll try it out and I'll keep it as quote-unquote hip-hop as possible (laughs). And I think when I write those kinds of songs, Tynan writes his best lyrics. That's when he writes the more meaningful songs. Like "T-shirt", he gets really poetic there and that's what he really used to do back in the day. My favorite songs are when he gets poetic with it and he's writing about emotions and feelings and problems or whatever. And those touch home with people a lot more.

antiMusic: Most creative people are never entirely happy with their finished work. Looking back at How to Drink Yourself Famous, is there anything that you would like to have changed or done more or less of?

Rockwell: Yes. I really would like to get a grant and not do the album so DIY. Yes, we did half of the album in a million dollar studio in Atlanta because I had access to that but I don't think our songs are getting the best mix possible when I'm mixing them. Very rarely do you hear of people mixing their own stuff. I want another person to mix our tracks and I want to go into an album just being the artist for once, as opposed to having all the pressure of mixing, engineering and mastering. I want to get a grant so we can afford to go into a proper studio and record an album properly. I would like to get an album done professionally, in the sense of the word.

antiMusic: Well, you've take a lot of time so I won't hold you up anymore, Jon. Congratulations again on the record. It's one of my favorites.

Rockwell: OK cool. I really appreciate this. This was fun. I didn't realize I could talk so much. (laughs)

Morley and antiMusic thank Rockwell for speaking with us.